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The Road Paved With Good Intentions

3/30/2017

21 Comments

 
Picture
Georgia, the excited Goldendoodle, shows off discipline, self-control, and happiness at the pet store thanks to prong collar and e-collar training
Most dog people I meet want their dogs to be happy and successful. I usually focus on that and try to avoid the seedy underbelly of dog politics, but not presenting you dog lovers out there with the facts is going to end up being detrimental to the dogs we care about so I must speak a little bit about what is happening in governments across the world and now here in the US.

Recently in Toronto, a new rule was snuck into the by-laws of the city of Toronto, Canada. The city decided to ban the use of prong collars and slip chains (often referred to as choke chains). Luckily, thanks to the tireless work of organizations like the International Association of Canine Professionals the rule has been temporarily repealed while they gather more information.
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Worse yet, in Hillsborough County and the state of Florida, a powerful lobby is pushing legislation that basically mandates an “all-positive” approach in dog training.

​There is a growing movement of a loud minority of trainers and animal rights activists who are well-intentioned, but misinformed about the benefits and drawbacks of such “aversive” tools and if the rest of us remain quiet, then we’ve got a dire situation for all the dogs we care about on our hands.

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To understand this issue better, I want to go back through the archives of AWDT and look at a few times tools such as a prong collar or a remote collar have changed the lives of dogs for the better:
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Look at Elmer. He is a French Bulldog who was originally trained at the most well-renowned all-positive school in Indianapolis where his behavior was clearly not fixed. He blew up not only at every dog he saw, but every car, person, lawnmower, leaf, etc.
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This is Elmer, in the same 1 hour time frame, passing another reactive dog at the beginning of the video with very brief prong collar training
And just for good measure this is Elmer enjoying a party at a park a short time after that – contrast this to the approach the all-positive school here in Indy took of sequestering him in class:
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Which scenario is going to cause more harm to a dog? Scenario 1 with a “humane” flat collar or scenario 2 with a prong collar? Which tools will open up the world to Elmer and which tool will keep him stuck in the house?

As you can see, have the options to switch to different tools can quickly allow dogs to get out of their own way and open up an opportunity to more positive training and more positive experiences.
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Or perhaps we look at Abbott – a spirited golden retriever who had repeatedly gotten excited and pulled his elderly handler to the ground. Look at him here walking with a pack. He’s happy, healthy and enjoying the world. Thanks to prong collars and remote collars Abbott can spend time on and off-leash in the world with his owners without causing them physical harm. With a limited training approach and a limited toolbox, this dog and owner – a great energy mismatch from the start – could have been doomed to failure. ​
And here is a video of Bitzy - a recent board and train who was insecure and fearful. In this video I help her overcome fear using a prong collar and clicker training - a truly balanced approach to training has that effect.
If you search the web you will find countless stories about dogs that turned their lives around and excelled in the world with the help of various tools deemed “inhumane” by ideological university professors and well-intentioned positive trainers.

Positive training is great – I clicker train most every dog that comes through my doors. That doesn’t mean that other tools aren’t useful in helping a dog be successful in their home environment or in the general public.
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As LA trainer Sean O’Shea put it in a must read blog post on this topic, positive training makes a great “yes,” but a terrible “no.”

Here are some things to consider if we’re going to start banning training tools:
 
1)      More dogs will be euthanized – It’s the sad truth. If people can’t find the trainers and tools to be successful, dogs will be turned into shelters and rescues and often euthanized because they are “uncontrollable” or “dangerous.”

2)      Many dogs will have more limited lives – the reality for a lot of dogs is that they are bad on leash. If people are limited to harnesses and flat collars, many will choose to just not walk their dogs.

3)      Dogs will still be abused – If someone is going to abuse a dog, they don’t need a prong collar or a slip chain to do it. An animal abuser will do more harm with a stick, their foot, or their hands than they will with a training collar.

4)      People will have to spend much more time training their dogs – the point of a good tool is to make your work efficient. That’s what these tools do. A good trainer can train a dog with anything. Or even sometimes with nothing. But every dog owner will have to become an excellent trainer as well. This isn’t a bad thing, but it will certainly discourage more casual dog ownership and potentially keep more dogs in shelters. 

5)      Dog owners will lose the freedom of choice – One approach doesn’t fit all dogs. Many owners go through several trainers until they find one who uses an approach that works with their dog. If all trainers train the same way, with the same tools, then this becomes much more difficult.

6)      Some “friendly” tools are hated by dogs – The most common alternatives to prong collars are face collars (Haltis, Gentle Leaders) and “no-pull” harnesses.” Face collars, if you ask me, are the tools that dogs would vote to have banned. I’ve seen dogs gator roll, flip, and fight when one was placed on their face. They might also lead to long term neck issues from having their face pulled on. This is essentially the straightjacket of dog collars. “No-pull” harnesses work on the same principle as prong collars – they make it uncomfortable to pull. Prong collars just look worse. And unlike prong collars, no-pull harnesses could lead to long term shoulder and joint issues from the torque of the harness – not a problem with the evenly distributed pressure of a prong collar.

Dog training is always evolving and it’s our job as trainers to get better at what we do, but dog owners should have the right to decide if a trainer is being inhumane or unfair with their dog.

Unfortunately, we’ve reached a point where people who have effectively trained their dog and have used effective tools are forced to defend themselves – previously our defense has been showing off well-trained and happy dogs, but that doesn’t seem to be enough anymore.

I encourage you, if you’ve benefitted from any dog training tool, tell your friends about it and be ready to answer their claims about how “inhumane” you are. Be proud of the success you’ve achieved and don’t be afraid to tell your neighbors and legislators how your dogs’ lives have improved from slip collars, prong collars, or e-collars.

*Please share this post and perspective so people understand the realities of dog training. ​
21 Comments
Charles link
3/30/2017 07:26:18 pm

Great article bud. Hope you're well.

Reply
Andrew Warner link
3/30/2017 07:29:09 pm

I appreciate it. Thanks for the kind words. I hope I get to see you again soon

Reply
Pat Grabill
3/30/2017 09:44:57 pm

Dodger at one year is still a puppy. He wears both a prong collar when on leash and an e-collar all the time during the day. Both collars have made training him MUCH easier and have helped him to become a happy, healthy member of the family. I posted a video of a training exercise on Andrew's website. Both collars helped get him to this point, and the collars made it easier on me and on Dodger.

Reply
Alice
3/31/2017 07:59:47 am

Addison and I wouldn't be able to walk Rosie without our prong collar! Being an 80lb very exited boxer, she needs that limit to rein her back in when we are out and about! Thanks Andrew for your dedication and showing us how to effectively train our dog!

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Andrew Warner link
3/31/2017 08:04:27 am

Thank you for sharing your success! You guys will always be in the AWDT hall of fame for the work you did with Rosie!

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Mary Beth
3/31/2017 09:21:46 am

I remember being so worried about Olivia and Bandit training with e-collars. Then you let me try it to see what it was like. I couldn't feel anything at the level you used for them.

Before training with you, Bandit would run away and never look back. I'd sit and wait for a call, hoping he hadn't been hit by a car or worse, caused an accident, hurting others. Now, a year and a half after training, he enjoys freedom to run, sniff, and play without being bound by a leash. That wouldn't have been possible without your training methods. For that, our family is forever grateful!

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andrew warner link
3/31/2017 02:19:36 pm

Still one of my favorite things I have ever read!

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Susan S.
3/31/2017 09:29:44 am

Ace is much better behaved and more secure with his prong and ecollar. I was skeptical at first since like you said, there's so much bad press about these training tools. But I am confident he would not have come as far as he has without them. They are not painful for him and just help me enforce boundaries, which make him a happier and more stable dog! Thanks again for helping us make Ace a part of our family!

Reply
Andrew Warner link
3/31/2017 02:21:07 pm

Thanks for all the work you put in with ace! You guys have come an impressively long way.

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Deb Jarrell
3/31/2017 06:08:48 pm

I have been training dogs for over 40 years. I always try to stay on top of the newest training methods. Many work well with some dogs, but, there will always be the occasional dog that just needs that extra help.
I really appreciate what you are saying. I usually end up working with the dogs who need that extra help, after the owner has almost given up. The key is teaching how to use any of the tools available correctly.

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andrew warner link
4/1/2017 08:12:22 am

Thanks for letting people know your experienced perspective!

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Matt link
4/17/2017 11:21:19 am

I've tried to explain it to others in the frame of the on-going conversation human child discipline (i.e. spanking). That topic tends to be one folks have given more thought to and have a strong opinion about. From research I've done, the dog conversation among enthusiasts is very similar, and I'm not convinced there is any one, globally "right" solution.

That being said, my personal opinion is two-fold. First, every situation and personality is unique and deserves unique consideration. Second, I'm never a fan of attempting to legislate morality. There is a whole lot of gray area between discipline and abuse, and it's going to be very difficult for non-experts (politicians, not dog trainers) to set appropriate boundaries.

That being said, I totally appreciate your viewpoint. Especially the idea about being able to work with a full "toolbox" when confronting issues. Also, fantastic examples!

Reply
Andrew Warner link
4/26/2017 02:33:17 pm

Thank you for your thoughtful comment!

We can talk about this for our whole session next time if you'd like!

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Boni
4/26/2017 02:29:59 pm

Heya, I am IN Toronto right now.

The worst behaved dogs I see are on anti-pull harnesses or haltie collars. Most of the best I see are on prongs or slip collars.

What we need to do is *be out there*. I loudly and proudly train my dog in public places on and off lead, law be damt. We need to *be out there* with our good dogs, showing people what good dogs are, and what they are capable of, every day.

People see I sometimes have treats and that my dog will work off lead an on. He'll do tricks, follow commands and be friendly when instructed.

The biggest game-changer is *showing* the public what a dog can do and what an asset they can be, right there, in front of their eyes, no video tricks, all mistakes hanging right out there. When they see the dog is calm and the owner isn't frustrated, being dragged around and yelling, tit peaks their interest.

When they see a happy, well-adjusted dog that's a joy to be around, I find they soon change their preconceived notions of what they find "cruel" about dog training.

Once they see for themselves, the closeness of the relationship between a balanced trainer/owner and their dog, I've noticed their minds are far more open to the various training methods.

Reply
Andrew Warner link
4/26/2017 02:39:36 pm

Boni,

I agree whole-heartedly. I am walking through the streets of Indy with a well-behaved dog pack every day. I get stares, thumbs ups, and compliments all the time -- Especially if I'm wearing a Baby Bjorn or something like that.

However, I do think that trainers like us have relied upon our results (both in reliability and happiness of the dogs) to speak for themselves and that worked for a while. However, balanced methods are getting sniped at on the Internet, at University, and through legislation while we are out getting results and I think it's on us to be a little louder in various forums so that all the sniping doesn't go unanswered.

Take that for what it's worth!

Keep reppin' for us up in Toronto. I don't think the issue is put to rest up there!

Reply
Boni
4/26/2017 03:32:06 pm

I can tell you from my personal perspective why all this PP nonsense has taken off without much challenging.

Anyone who debates with the Only Cookies Mob is harassed and bullied. Because I have Eisenmann-style dog educating experience, a good friend begged me to be on Dogster as a voice for alternative forms of dog training.

I read the viciousness of the posts and told her, "No thanks. I don't need that much crap in my life." I suspect there are a lot of people like me, out there who don't want to spend hours being attacked on the internet. Cesar Milan was driven off FaceBook where he had a wonderful advice page for a couple of years until it became too bullying for anyone to moderate, any longer.

A good friend of mine who was a maverick in the field, was driven out of the business. His dog training facility is now a goat farm.

Nothing will change in Toronto I expect until there's lawsuits against the city to have balanced trained dogs, returned to their rightful owners.

We need to keep stressing that *working dogs are trained with balanced methods* and those dogs are generally bred carefully for the job and the trainers *still* require the odd adversive.

Unless we all want to own wheezy, submissive, specially-bred pugs in the next generation, something has to give.

Part of my schtick (as you saw on The Good Dog) is to say, "Prove it. Right here, right now, no preparation, let your dog loose."

Barbara Woodhouse trained dogs with discipline and affection.

Now dog training has turned owners into vending machines and dogs into treat consumers. Which pretty much reflects the profit motive as the Rewards based trainers string desperate owners along for months without concrete results for problems a balanced trainer could fix in a week.

Which is again, how I believe we have to approach it. There's only one criteria here. The dog either obeys or it does not. It is either a good canine citizen or it is not.

Andrew Warner link
4/26/2017 06:13:21 pm

Everything you're saying is true. Every time I get into a conversation with "all positive" trainers on the Internet It's a terrible experience and a waste of time.

I think it is important that balanced trainers keep putting truth out there - like I do here, or the Good Dog, or Cesar's website.

I was reading a thread on one of Cesar's old videos the other day and the negativity just sticks to me for a while. So I get what you're saying.

But we create content not for the all-positive crowd, but for the normal dog owners on the web who are looking for answers. We want to make sure that if they are spending money or training dogs with no results they know there is something better out there.

I hope you stick around and become a regular commenter on this site. Your contributions are awesome!

Reply
Boni
4/26/2017 06:39:47 pm

Oh my, thank you. I am enjoying your blog and comments, as well.

Can I throw a suggestion out there?

Lots of people like me, don't have access to training facilities.

It would be great to see a discussion on how to be creative in our neighbourhoods on using natural/built obstacles as heeling/reverse heeling boxes, safe balancing rails, different concrete objects and playground items to do tricks on and that sort of thing.

I've never seen a large discussion on that and I'm sure many of people might have ideas I never thought of, yet.

Also, most people, when a dog acts up, avoid it. Some discussion around how to use the environment (such as other people's dogs) safely to improve behaviours might be interesting, as well :)

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Trent Riley link
12/13/2020 03:09:31 am

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Andrew Warner link
12/13/2020 07:21:58 am

I'm glad you loved it!

I appreciate your taking the time to read it.

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